In this episode I speak with Scott Miller PhD (scottdmiller.com). Scott dedicates himself to research and training which improve therapist outcomes thereby enriching the lives of clients and therapists themselves. He shares insights from this work as well as detouring from his usual areas of expertise. We discuss future strategies for the Covid 19 pandemic, implicit and explicit emotions, how to interpret data and avoid being misled by experts (i.e. look for the Counterfactual), the importance of measuring outcomes and deliberately practicing challenging conversations in counseling. We get a sense of Scott personally as he shares reflections of an experience in his own therapy.