We pride ourselves on being a small trading nation that ‘punches above its weight’. But actually we’re not that good. Exports as a percentage of GDP are only around 28%, compared with about 60% in other small trading nations like Denmark. Ok, they’re much closer to markets, but we’re still way too dependent on commodities like milk powder and logs and low productivity sectors like tourism. How can trade deals help us make better stuff not just more stuff?

To look at the trade deals we have and the ones we’d like to get, New Zealand’s chief trade negotiator, MFAT’s Vangelis Vitali and NZ Herald Business Editor, Fran O’Sullivan joins Josie’s Pagani on this week’s podcast - The Devil's in the Detail.