Dr. Katherine Ramsland is a professor of forensic psychology at DeSales University. Dr. Ramsland has written over 70 books and appeared in more than 200 crime documentaries. Her work includes interviews with notorious criminals, including BTK (Dennis Rader). Tracy Ullman: A documentary producer and director, Tracy has worked on numerous true-crime series for Discovery and PBS. She is best known for her work on John Wayne Gacy: Devil in Disguise and her recent book with Dr. Ramsland, The Serial Killer's Apprentice. Resources: How to catch a killer The Mind of a Murderer: A glimpse into the darkest corners of the human psyche, from a leading forensic psychiatrist John Wayne Gacy: Devil in Disguise The Serial Killer's Apprentice In this episode of Zone 7, Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum, sits down with Dr. Katherine Ramsland and Tracy Ullman, two crime experts who have spent years investigating and documenting the case of Elmer Wayne Henley Jr., the infamous accomplice to serial killer Dean Corll. Together, they explore the complexities of Henley's involvement, his eventual decision to stop Corll, and the psychological and emotional manipulation that Wayne faced as a young teenager. Wayne himself, joins Zone 7 as a special guest to provide personal insight into his mindset during his time with Corll. Wayne shares his story, from being groomed and manipulated into participating in heinous crimes to his ultimate decision to kill Corll to prevent further murders. Show Notes:

• (0:00) Welcome back to Zone 7 with Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum  
• (0:20) Sheryl introduces guest, Dr. Katherine Ramsland to Zone 7
• (2:00) Sheryl introduces second guest, Tracy Ullman to Zone 7
• (3:00) Tracy introduces surprise guest, Elmer Wayne Henley to Zone 7
• (5:10) Meeting Dean Corll 
• (5:20) "The first thing he said to me was an obscene joke, so I won't repeat it, but it made me feel like, hey, I'm part of this, I'm part of this group." 
• (7:45) The blurred line between victim and apprentice 
• (10:30) Wayne's future plans derailed
• (11:30) Dr. Ramsland discusses the term ‘Murdar’ for victim selection
• (13:50) Tracy speaks on building trust with Wayne  
• (17:00) Wayne talks about the grooming process
• (19:10) Attempting to join the Navy to escape
• (24:00) Turning point - Wayne describes the moment he decided to end Corll's killing spree
• (30:30) Tracy’s Methodology
• (34:00) Correcting the narrative
• (36:00) Who Was Dean Corll?
• (37:10) “Young people have absolutely nothing in common with an adult. And when they spend time with you, when they make it seem like they do have, it's all a lie.”
• (38:00) Advice for younger people from Wayne
• (43:10) “I have to accept that any child, because that's what I was, any child could be manipulated given the right buttons were pushed and Dean pushed all my buttons.” -E.W.H
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--- Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. Sheryl is also the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, a collaboration between universities and colleges that brings researchers, practitioners, students and the criminal justice community together to advance techniques in solving cold cases and assist families and law enforcement with solvability factors for unsolved homicides, missing persons, and kidnapping cases.   Social Links:

• • Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
  • Twitter: @ColdCaseTips
  • Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum

• Instagram: @officialzone7podcast

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